estepheia | It's time for another peeve post

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It's time for another peeve post

If this will make me unpopular, so be it. I have to vent. Please do not feel insulted. It's nothing personal. Whatever floats your boat, etc.

Hunging season is open. Here's a list of words and expressions that I'd rather shoot myself than use (although I may have used them in my younger days...)

* chocolate orbs traveling the angular planes of his face
* cerulean orbs
* velvety orbs

What is it with those orbs? The only orbs I like are real objects. And the chocolate. Chocolate eyes? a) read it so often that it makes me gag, b) has a horrible eating vibe which doesn't go well with eyeballs. Eeew.
'Cerulean' is a nice word, very pretty. So is 'blue.' But we do know that Spike's eyes are blue, so maybe just maybe we don't need to be told every second sentence. Same with the hair-color. Which means that constant use of 'the blonde' is just as out.

* Spike's soft hair - Oh please. After twenty years of bleaching? You wish.
(There is a brilliant story by Zero that deals with the fact that even Spike has his imperfections and is on some level just a guy)

* childe - noooooo please. As a real parent I find the vibe off-putting. Makes me think of small kids, not of sexy vampires. The whole concept of vicious killers turning into cuddly poppa-bears for their adored childe makes me cringe. (However I *do* see different emotional ties when the vamps are souled)

* sable hair - Ask me what Nicholas Brendan's haircolor is and I sure as hell won't say sable. *snort*

* beautiful - a word to be used with care. How about 'handsome', 'good-looking' and 'attractive'?

* pulsing - in conjunction with certain parts of the male anatomy I think 'throbbing' is the nicer image. Just saying.

* baited breath - shouldn't that be 'bated'?

*sucking - a lovely word used to describe what mouths do. Not so great for other orifices. Anataomically impossible too.

I used to love the badfic thread at TwoP. *Sigh* I never got into the habit of visiting its new home. Sometimes I wonder if

mikelesq shouldn't resurrect it here. Sometimes I even wonder if I shouldn't quote a few paragraphs of truly horrible writing, but I don't really feel like offending someone.

Oooh, maybe I can do it behind cut tags. Do not read if m/m smut offends you. Do not read if you think pointing out bad writing is mean. But if you do read it please tell me, is it just me or does this really suck? Is this so-called purple prose?

"Slowly, Spike raised his body until only the bulbous head of Angel's cock remained inside him. Watching those velvety brown eyes flare with gold as Spike slid down again joining them together again was nearly Spike's undoing. Angel's eyes were held mesmerized as he watched the place where his body joined Spike's. He stared as Spike rose again; seeing his hardness bathed in his
Childe's blood disappear into that hidden reasure once again."

later:
"Over and over, Angel slid his way home into the only place he felt truly alive. Inside his beautiful childe."
Wickedly Delicious by Amy.

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This time I didn't post about this at Nummytreats but vented a bit in my own LJ. And the one time I talked about peeves in the sxandviolence LJ group I first asked the mods if it's ok if I do.

Ah, maybe it's a cultural thing. In Germany we enjoy lively debates. Learning to stand up for one's opinion is something we are taught at school.

::cough::thisfromthegirlwhostillcan'tspell"friend"::cough::

;o)

You said:
Ah, maybe it's a cultural thing. In Germany we enjoy lively debates. Learning to stand up for one's opinion is something we are taught at school.
______________

First of all, that's a pretty xenophobic statement. Second of all, I didn't say where I was from (does it really matter?).

It seems to me that if it is "lively debate" that you are interested in, badfic rants are a pretty dry source. From what I've seen, all you get are a bunch of badficcers making statements like, "You're mean!" or "I just write for myself, so bug off!", along with a number of not-so-bad-ficcers saying "Amen". Not exactly a rich source of debate. It seems to me that if you're actually in if for the debate as opposed to feeling superior and getting ego-strokes from your peers, you might find a more debatable topic.

I tend to be a lot more free with my delete key these days when it comes to mailing list fandom rants, so I probably didn't see the last one in NT.

The thing is, in the smorgasbord of example opinions you mention there, there isn't one that doesn't disagree with the fact that there are overused words and phrases in too many fanfics these days, and that there is some disgraceful grammar out there - all the differences I ever see are about whether it really matters or not, and you have to admit that the vast majority of these kind of posts just perpetuate much more of the "I'm glad somebody had the nerve to bring this up..." kind of replies than anything else. That's what I mean by preaching to the choir.

there's plenty of us who are gratified to know that we're not the only ones out there who are going to gack if we see one more use of the phrase "His Nummy."

Don't you tire of all the negativity generated by this though? Self-gratification aside, how many times do people need to be reassured that everyone is thinking the exact same thing that they are?

- Dudette

I believe there is an LJ version of the old TWOP badfic thread -- it's the badbuffyfic community.

There's also a hotmail group here.

I'm just not sure what you're trying to achieve. The badfic writers are going to ignore you, and the good writers already know this stuff.

I disagree. Yes, there are writers who are just flat out bad. At No Cookie, we have fun with them. We're not offering serious criticism. The writers of such stories usually show a basic inability to write anything; improving the creative quality of their writing is out of the question. It is not our hope that they will write better fiction; it is our hope that gifted and inspiring eductators will find these people and teach them the basic rules of grammar and sentence structure, so they may some day find gainful employment.

So I'd agree that there's a lot of bad fic written by hopelessly bad writers, and that no amount of criticism will be of help.

However, there are a lot of other fic writers who exist on the cusp of quality. Their spelling, grammar, characterization, prose, and imagery are all fine (or at least show potential), but a cliche here or a malapropism there makes the story at best tiresome, at worst unreadable.

Unfortunately, such writers often find a lot of positive reinforcement in their feedback. Of course, the sources of such feedback may not be the most discerning of critics ("Oooh. 'Orbs.' That means 'tits.' Faith's tits. Hmmmmmm....").

So I think there's a place in the fanfiction community for serious criticism. Most fic writers want to be good writers. More importantly, they want to become better writers. Criticism helps. Posting a story on the internet is going to bring criticism. If you only write for your own personal pleasure, fine. Keep it on your hard drive. But when you put out there for others to read, you invite feedback, and you have to take the boos with the bows.

I suppose I'm not an unbiased observer, since I co-host the S/X writers' guild zone, but honestly? I'd rather see someone make a post every so often that points out specific peeves and bad writing techniques in general, and watch folks bitch about whether it's important, whether those particular peeves are legitimate writing critiques or just personal gripes, etc. Because then people are talking about it, instead of going on their merry way and pretending that every story and every writer is wonderful and precious from the get-go.

The negativity isn't unrelenting -- hell, I think in the 3 years I've been on NT there's maybe been two peeve/writing discussions. Certainly the few discussions like this one that I see spread out across various boards/lists/etc are vastly overwhelmed by the mountain of badfic out there.

And obviously by the number of generally agreeing or discussion comments here, there is still an audience for it. So what if it's mostly the choir? You rephrased my comment about feeling gratified as "self-gratification" but what the hell on the internet isn't about self-gratification? If we want to have a discussion about the foibles and quirks and just plain badness we see in fiction, and it's not off-topic for the arena in which we're discussing it, then at least it's amusing or cathartic for us. And if somebody god forbid does realize that there *are* folk who don't think "Spike and Xanpet's Luv Shack With Occasional Random Guest Appearances By Oz" is the be-all end-all of decent writing, huzzah.

It seems to me that it's you who are tiring of [your perception of] the large amount of negativity -- which is fine, but your delete key works in this case too. Or your scroll wheel.

Something tells me that this debate is not new - but isn't your lj the place where you can say pretty much whatever you feel like?

And if Stef is one of the Reich-Ranickis of Fanfic - that should be a reason for her to not speak her mind? Why? And, excuse me, but every author, and that certainly includes people who write stuff like Over and over, Angel slid his way home into the only place he felt truly alive. Inside his beautiful childe should be prepared to be criticized. If you aren't, don't publish.

Kathi

isn't your lj the place where you can say pretty much whatever you feel like?

I'm not trying to censor anybody's lj. Are you trying to censor healthy debate?

I agree with you, anyone that posts/publishes their fiction should be prepared to be reviewed. I just object to ridicule masquerading as constructive criticism.

Hey, stop picking on my freind, beeyotch!

er, ficbeeyotch, that is.

I just object to ridicule masquerading as constructive criticism.
That is certainly your prerogative.

I agree that it's not nice to mock, but (like Mad Poetess said) it can be cathartic. Also, we live in a culture where some people like talk masters and comedians get paid oodles of money to mock other people in public, so I don't really feel like I'm out of line here.

I have discovered that critical feedback is not widely appreciated. So, instead of writing 25 feedback posts in which I say, "I liked your fic but you used the expression 'chocolate orb' and that sounds awfully purple" and crushing 25 egos with explicit criticism directed at them, I rather go into peeve-post mode every four months or so.
I still think it's educational. And I totally agree it's not nice.

I believe I was saying something about Germans.

Or what? You'll break LJ? Again?

;o)

I must admit that a lot of these lists/sites/forums offering 'constructive criticism' make me cringe.

So I think there's a place in the fan fiction community for serious criticism.

I think that it very much depends on what your definition of criticism is. I’ve been directed to quite a few of these ‘bad fic’ lists over the years, and on practically every single occasion what I’ve read on list wasn’t constructive criticism at all. Rather, it was a group of people actively hunting out ’bad fic’ and then gleefully tearing both it and the authors apart.

According to the Merriam/Webster dictionary, criticism is...

the art of evaluating or analyzing works of art or literature

From what I recall, there was very little evaluating or analyzing going on - pieces of fiction were openly and repeatedly mocked and quite often disparaging remarks made about the author.

Whether or not the fiction was bad or not, isn't really the point. Last time I checked, everyone and his or her dog had the right to post fiction on the 'net if they so chose to do so.

However, the fact that the fiction is bad doesn't give other people the right to hurl ridicule and on some occasions abuse. And I must also point out that *some* of the people hurling said abuse, weren't exactly accomplished authors themselves, although they appeared to be laboring under the misconception that they are.

I've always thought that if you treat others in the manner in which *you'd* like to be treated, you can't go wrong. If you feel strongly that you need to criticize, fine - it's your right to do so. But ridicule and cruelty should certainly not be confused with, nor should it be passed off as constructive criticism. I see nothing constructive in insulting or hurting someone so badly that they feel they cannot post.

Most fic writers want to be good writers. More importantly, they want to become better writers.

True. But not everyone is capable of doing so. Does that give other people the right to drive them from their chosen fandom, though? Simply because in their opinion they aren't good enough?

Criticism helps.

I'm well aware that there are those who neither heed nor want criticism and are quite content to go on their merry way. That is their right to do so. However, I know quite a few authors personally who would rather someone would have mailed them with suggestions or genuine criticism, instead of finding that they were the source of ridicule on a site/list/forum/whatever.

BTW, I'm not suggesting for a second that all of the people on these bad fic lists are guilty of the behavior that I've described above, but there is no doubt that there is a certain element that thrives on it.

I don't think that pointing out bad writing is mean - it's the manner in which it's done that's important. I have on occasion mailed authors with criticism privately. My opinion is no more important than theirs is, at the end of the day - and even if I didn’t like their story, other people on the lists appreciated it. And I doubt very much that *any* of us would want to be the butt of other people's joke on a public forum.

I mean to offend no one, btw. This is purely MHO.

Eyes like a lake
Where a storm-wind roams
Caught me from under
The rim of a hat.
I thought of a midsea wreck
and bruised fingers clinging
to a broken state-room door.

May I lick someone's eyes too? Anyone's? I'm hungry.

Hmm. I should clarify that I'm thinking more of the general peeves and badfic items and sure, why not, rants on the use of they're, their and there, vs. mocking specific stories, in terms of it being a cathartic and non-harmful discussion. Even if it's inded boring for some.

Yes! I will seet on eeet! And brake eeet! And then where weeel you be, eh?

one of the Reich-Ranickis of Fanfic
Goodness me, that man is such a bore. ;-)
But - wow - that's still some compliment (it is, right?) *giggle*
*Schmatz*

That's what short, cute coughannoyingcough beta readers are for!

Thank goodness I have you. Not that any one else would put up with either of us. :}

Thank you for defending me. What would I do without you, my freend? ;}

Mine are hazelnut. :Bats eyelashes at MP:

But it's too late! I already had a mochaccino!

As someone who has actually learned many helpful hints both from Estepheia and from Pet Peeve lists, I feel the need to add my two cents.

Anyone who has never tried their hand at writing before and starts with fanfiction can be doomed for failure unless they are pointed in the right direction. Fanfiction writers often start out simply as readers. They read a few dozen fics, suddenly get a plot bunny and decide they can write too. And they do – with varying results. My point is that these novice writers often know nothing more about writing than from what they pick up from other fics. This lends to repeating bad habits.

Pet Peeve lists do actually help some people. Most writers do want to become better writers (as Mikelesq mentioned). Reading these discussions helps them to recognize their own mistakes. If I read something in a Pet Peeve list that I’ve done, I sticks with me more than reading it in any Writer’s Guild. They have provided me with indirect feedback on my mistakes that I never would have received directly (outside of my beta).

Pet Peeve lists also opens debates for the difference between bad writing and personal preference. Some people list Spike purring as a pet peeve. Is that bad writing? To me that’s a personal preference. See – it works both ways : )

By the way – I am speaking directly about personal pet peeve lists and not bad-fic threads (that point out specific fics and authors). I can’t comment on those - since I’ve never read one.

Just dropping in via Mad Poetess-- and wanted to say kudos for this journal post. I can see both sides of the issue, certainly, but the bottom line is that you cannot be denied your right to do and say as you wish in your own LJ. Nor should any fanfic writer be surprised to receive criticism when s/he posts her/his fic in a public forum.

Also-- I'm adding you to my friends list, in hopes of much more entertaining kerfuffle in the future!

He is. But I couldn't resist using the expression :)
As for criticism - it's supposed to put the finger in the wound. Which might hurt. A good "Verriss" (translation?) is not just constructive, it's sometimes mean and nasty as well -if the piece of work that is being criticized deserves it. Citicism is an art itself and shouldn't be boring (I guess we all agree that stuff like " your fic sucks" or "My poodle writes better fic than you do" is not criticism.), and I think it has every right to ridicule what is "ridiculable".

Kathi

P.S. Mal ganz abgesehen davon ist ohnehin nicht alles, was im Netz auftaucht, in die Kategorie Literatur einzuordnen und dementsprechend auch nicht mit dem gleichen Respekt zu behandeln. Ich finde es völlig in Ordnung, sprachliche Entgleisungen ab und zu abzuwatschen.

Welcome!
Actually, I don't kerfuffle often. I *try* to be polite most of the time. But this peeve thing bubbles up about twice a year. You should hear me on the Mary Sue issue. ;-)

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