Non-con poll

[estepheia]

Poll concerning non-con fics and perspective. Because I'm curious and because *gasp* I am writing AU and the story is hurtling that way.
I find it difficult to discuss the whole subject, which is why I decided to screen all replies. If you don't want/need your reply to be screened, just tell me. :-)

[Poll #402995]

Comments

[paratti.livejournal.com]

I'd go with what the story tells you the pov has to be, what and whose story is driving the tale you're needing to tell.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Hey, then I'm a sicko too, because while non-con squicks me 95% of the time, there are days when a well-written genuine non-con story just hits the spot. Borderline non-con I read more often. Unfortunately not many are written well. Whenever I get the sudden craving, about once every two or three months, I always wade through tons of crap before finding something that I like.

Spike always makes a good victim. He bleeds so prettily.

Anyway, thanks very much for replying. :-)

[kimberly-a.livejournal.com]

I almost never read non-con, and the only non-con story I can think of that didn't turn my stomach is Rune's The State We're In (http://www.shadows-and-dust.co.uk/Fiction/thestatewerein.htm), which is told from alternating POV. It's the victim's POV before and during the attack, but then shifts to the rapist's POV in the immediate aftermath, and then back and forth after that. Of course, it's only borderline non-con, in that the victim *does* in fact ask for it ... just not in the way it's given.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Hee. You're not the only one to rec that fic. Following your link I reread it. Thank you. I read it years ago, but rereading was good. And helped me with my predicament.

Thank you.

Um, can I unscreen your comment?

[kimberly-a.livejournal.com]

Sure, feel free to unscreen. :)

[ex-bloodshed662.livejournal.com]

ok, so i'm not commenting on the poll. *ducks head*

Just wanted to inform you that I've had another case of attempted plagarism, someone tried to submit 3 fics to my fanfic archive. 2 of Laure Alexander's and one other "unknown" (but now identified thanks to sounding sea)

I know how you feel regarding the subject, so figured I'd give you a headsup!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

Came by way of su_herald and please don't screen me. :-)

I like to read alot of different stuff, yeah, I know. Not original. But non-con is just one of those things that catches my eye and I tend to read often. Depending on my mood, I like either the attacker's POV or the victim's POV. I prefer a switching point of view throughout the attack, depending on what is going on. It really all depends on what you want to achieve.

From the victim's POV you can get some serious angst. And the reader gets really emotionally involved, going through the attack with the victim, whereas you get perhaps answers from the attacker's POV. Not that that isn't emotionally impacting as well but by getting into the attacker's mind, the reader can pull back and take a breather. Of course this all depends on what is going through the attacker's mind. It could be an even scarier place inside there. Whatever made them do what they are doing, could be reveling and it probably isn't pretty.

Just like in Seeing Red, I would bet following Spike's POV would be far more interesting, as (and this is just my opinion) he is far more emotionally distraught by what is going on, despite whether he views it as an attack or not. And that issue can only be truly answered from the attacker's thoughts. Words can be deceiving.

Which just leads me to the next point. If you don't want to have any sympathy for the attacker stay away from his/her perspective. Unless they think they are being an utter bastard and you want to show that. But I think this was the problem ME had with trying to show us Spike was evil in S6. They kept showing him mooning over Buffy and brooding. Not exactly evil there. *snort*

One of the best fics, that I know that does use switching POV is The State We're In (http://www.shadows-and-dust.co.uk/Fiction/thestatewerein.htm) by rune_vampyr. A Spike/Xander dark fic, with non con sex, definitely NC-17.
Very dark, very angsty, very good.

I'd recommend reading it. Most definitely.

Well, I'll stop blabbing now. Hope it all goes well. Just remember...what is one woman's squick is another woman's kink.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Hey, you're the second person to rec that fic by Rune vampyr. I read that fic a while ago, and I reread it yesterday, but I think it doesn't quite deal with the knee-jerk revulsion that I assume the victim would feel at the rapist's touch, so the cuddle at the end seemed contrived for me. Also, the author "cheated" by bringing in vampire culture and custom, implying that when Spike loses control he can't help it, as though that makes it (more) ok somehow. It reminds me of the movie with Jodie Foster where she plays a girl who gets raped on the pinball machine. A lot of other characters argued she was asking for it because of the way she dressed and danced lasciviously, but the movie argues that no means no, even if the person saying no is dressed like a slut and no blushing virgin. I even vaguely remember a movie dealing with the question whether it's possible to rape a hooker, I think it was a movie with Barbra Streisand called "Nuts!".
The argument that Xander knew what he got into - since he read all those books about vampire porn - didn't work for me either.

This is not meant to put down the fic in question. I like Rune's writing. But it illustrates how different two people can read the same fic. See, writing and discussing non-con fic opens a whole can of worms. ;-)

What you wrote about changes in perspective is very useful for me.
I put the poll into my LJ because I had reached a point where I was desperate to get out of the rapist's head and into the victim's - only to discover that I didn't like the view from there either.

I am trying to write both characters plausibly and convincingly, so the rape has to come from somewhere inside the attacker. I want to show where the act originates, but when I move in that closely, we get to see the better traits too. I am usually interested in shades of gray, but I don't want the rapist to be too sympathetic.

As for the kink, well, I really have to decide how titillating I want to be. Since it's a ficathon story, I should probably try to push the button of the recipient, right?

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Intersting q.

I slightly prefer victim's POV, because I want to know how they are dealing with the events, but both can be interestingly written. I've written three non-con stories, and of them one is from the victim's POV, because part of his coping mechanism is to flash back to consensual episodes; one is from the rapist's POV because it's about his emotions towards the victim's stalwart resistance; and one is from both POVs, alternating, because I wanted to write about both characters' thoughts and attitudes.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your reply. Could you tell me which ones of your fic you're talking about? I checked out your site, but you are quite prolific. :-)

I would like to see the flashback example in particular. I am always interested in the technical side of story-telling.

BTW, with permission of several posters I unscreened some of the comments in this thread. Maybe you'd like to check them out. :-)

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your reply. Could you tell me which ones of your fic you're
talking about? I checked out your site, but you are quite prolific. :-)

*laugh* Yeah, I do write a bit; most of them are short, at least. I should have told you that I've listed all the stories I was referring to under 'darkfic' in my memories.

At any rate. I've actually written several non-con stories, as it turns out; I forgot a couple. *regards self warily*

"Warmth" (?/Sam, Frodo/Sam, hard R); it's told from the rapist's POV because of the twist at the end. http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubynye/629.html

"Rosemary, for Remembrance" (het, Freddy Bolger/OC, OCs/OC) is told from the title character's POV, because, well, it's about her. http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubynye/7818.html

The first one I mentioned (with the fllashbacks) is "A Wizard's Pupil" (Denethor/Pippin, various/Pippin, NC-17 : http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubynye/17498.html)

The second one I referred to is the (PG-13 rated, Viggo/Dom) snippet after the poll in this entry: http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubynye/42926.html (it may not make sense unless you read "A Friendly Visit [rated PG-13, Viggo/Dom, Billy/Dom] which sets up the situation: http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubynye/38835.html).

The third one, "Pocket Money" (Lotho/Sam, kinda sorta Frodo/Sam, rated R) has two parts :
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubynye/54405.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubynye/54047.html


BTW, with permission of several posters I unscreened some of the comments in this thread. Maybe you'd like to check them out. :-)

I definetely would. Thank you! (You may uncreen mine, if you like.)

[bedawyn.livejournal.com]

0I chose "always the victim" above, but I will allow the possibility of a rare exception. I read fanfic to identify with the character, and I can't imagine -- wouldn't want to imagine -- identifying with a rapist. It's takes both a seriously skilled author and a seriously fucked-in-the-head character to make a rapist sympathetic. I think I might have run into one or two Krycek stories years ago that might have succeeded there, and of course, now "Seeing Red" requires me to at least consider the possibility, but still, my automatic reaction is to just not read anything from the rapist's POV -- or anything that has either Spike or Xander as a rapist.

I used to read noncon regularly, but don't often these days, unless either a) it's an author I really like or b) I'm desperate for h/c and angst is all I can find. Partly this is a decision on my part to avoid darkfic, but I think it's also a reaction to having read too much badly done noncon. I think the biggest problem was authors confusing their goals with the rape scene. Are you doing it for the kink? ("You" being the general author, not you in particular.) Then that's the time to concentrate on the sensual, graphic physical description and on whatever emotions are appropriate for that particular kink. Is it supposed to demonstrate just how screwed up the rapist is so that we're sympathetic? Then the focus needs to be on the rapist's headspace (which may or may not be done through their POV). If it's to make us sympathize with the victim, then focus on the victim's headspace and spare us the graphic description except as the victim would be perceiving it. Don't go mixing a kinky, sensual, description with a scene that the character isn't experiencing as kinky and sensual; if it's supposed to be angst, there's no need to include every graphic detail right up front. Likewise, if it _is_ supposed to be kink, then it needs the same sort of sensual writing and tension in pacing that a consensual sex scene would have, and the characters we sympathize most with need to enjoy it on at least some level, or else it's just painful to read instead of kinky. It all boils down to the author knowing why she's choosing to write this --both the rape as plot point and the scene as scene -- and exactly what effect she's going for.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Please please, may I unscreen your reply? Or do you consider it to be too personal?
I think what you say is very useful for writers of all coleur. :-)

[knoifey-spoony.livejournal.com]

I'm a third-person POV lover for all types of fic.

Non-con especially would be... I'm not sure. First person POV from the view of either victim or rapist wouldn't settle properly for me, I don't think. Not because it would make me feel uncomfortable about the subject matter, but because it'd be even harder to get behind the mindset of the POV. You know? Hope you do, 'cause I don't. >:D

Anyway, yeah, just thought I'd mention. No need to keep this screened or anything. *salutes*

Here via four_lobsters. :D

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

I never even heard of the Four Lobsters communitiy. I didn't think this poll would reach that far. :-)

Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure I could ever write a rape from the first person POV. *shudders*

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your reply. I agree that the POV gulf between rapist and victim can make a story jarring to read beyond the intentions of the author.
You have given me food for thought.

BTW, a few comments in this thread are now unscreened because people gave their permission. The posts make interesting reading.

[bedawyn.livejournal.com]

I have no need for screening -- do as you will. Thanks for the vote of confidence. :-) (Unfortunately, it won't let me reply directly to your comment or to mine.)

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

oh, stupid screening mechanism. Tsk.

[http://users.livejournal.com/indiana_jane_/]

Non-con for me is highly dependent on context more so then POV.

Boderline non-con, as in it's more a game between lovers then actually genuine non-con, is one of my favorite fic!kinks. In which case I'll take either POV because it's basically just smut and can be hot from either perspective.

True non-con on the other hand is generally something I only want to read in the context of h/c stories. In which you're likely to get the victim's POV regardless because it is, for example, all about Xander recovering from getting raped by whomever (father, monster, etc) and then his road to recovery under Spike's care. In this case you’re unlikely to get the rapist’s POV because the story simply isn’t about them.

If, on the other hand, it is, for example, Spike raping Xander or vice versa, I'm much less interested in the fic all together because I just don't deal well with fic that dark. I don't like seeing characters I adore put in the role of a rapist. I don't ever want to have to understand them from that perspective. I'll make an exception if it's gloriously well-written, or by an author I adore, but will probably need excessive amounts of schoompy fic afterward. And POV, again, doesn't really matter to me.

No need to screen.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

True non-con on the other hand is generally something I only want to read in the context of h/c stories.

Oh yeah, I read several S/X stories in which Xander gets raped by his dad and in which Spike does the sexual healing thing, and yeah, those stories are not about the rape as such. Rape is simply used to break the character so the second character in the pairing can bring the victim back from the brink of destruction.

Yeah, that can work very well (although I never liked the far-fetched Xander's-dad-is-a-rapist scneario).

I don't ever want to have to understand [characters I adore] from that [rapist]perspective.
See, that's what interests me, the thin line between fantasy and deed, between good and evil, between control and lack of restraint. Seeing a character snap. That's one thing I always liked about Xander, how he's ultimately a well-meaning, ordinary guy, with a set of decent morals, and all the right knee-jerk reactions to violence and rape and evil, yet he has such a huge blind spot that he can throw all these things overboard when it comes to people/beings he perceives to be outside society's rules. He has a dark, vigilantist streak, that's interesting to explore.

In an AU things are a bit more complicated because we give up the backstory that gives "meaning" to such acts of violence.

Tricky, tricky.

Anyway, thanks for replying. I find this discussion extremely fruitful.

[http://users.livejournal.com/indiana_jane_/]

Rape is simply used to break the character so the second character in the pairing can bring the victim back from the brink of destruction.

Exactly. Which is a story that I love. But then I'm just a whore for h/c stories. Doesn't even have to be rape. I'll take torture too. ;)

See, that's what interests me, the thin line between fantasy and deed, between good and evil, between control and lack of restraint. Seeing a character snap.

I understand that. It's just not something that I deal with very well. For the same reason that I won't watch movies about serial killers or rapists or even watch real life documentaries. It disturbs me on some level that I just can't deal with. I don't want to understand rape or murder from any perspective fictional or real. It just frightens me too much.

But that's me.

My mother on the other hand is more like you. Likes to understand that thin line.

Anyway, thanks for replying. I find this discussion extremely fruitful.

You're welcome! It's certainly an interesting discussion. I'm glad you instigated it!

Switching POV

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

I hate switching POVs, always gives me something akin to whiplash, but in this case I wasn't thinking about the dizzying succession of POVs, I was thinking about one big switch, in the middle and one more shortly before the end. Actually, I wasn't so much *thinking* about such a switch but it happened. Suddenly I realized I desperately wanted to leave the rapist's POV (before his skewered views made any more sense) and watch the victim's headspace. I think that it was a kind of cowardice that prompted me to jump out. I never write dark scenes without constantly secondguessing myself or wondering what people will think of me for being able to write something like that. (which is why I posted the poll in the first place.)

Which is odd, because *I* don't judge people (and their RL personality) for writing non-con per se, not even if it's titillating. But I do frown if the story is badly crafted -- as though good writing made everything right.

I have read badly written non-con that turned me on against my better judgement. That is a rather embarrassing experience, but I believe that fanfiction allows us to explore these things without genuine dangers to ourselves. I am a firm believer that in our fantasy anything goes. It's the sharing of these fantasies where I'm sometimes doubtful.

I once read a story on fanfiction net that really horrified me, where I thought the line had been crossed, but some people think there is no such line, and others think that describing rape in a titillating way already constitutes such a line.

So, ultimately, there are different camps and everybody has to decide for herself, where she belongs. I, for one, are curious, where my story will take me. It's probably *not* going to be one of my better works, but I do hope that the recipient will be happy.

[rainkatt.livejournal.com]

Really late here, but I wanted to comment, although I'm not entirely sure I've worked it out for myself. I was originally going to check "always the victim's POV" but then went for switching between, and "other," because I also think I would like to read (and think maybe I have, somewhere...) a fic where we have an observer's POV. Of course, that usually leads to the observer becoming the rescuer, and we're back to classic h/c. If this is two normally sympathetic characters, I think it would be interesting to be in the mind of the attacker, at least for a while, simply because it would be fascinating to see what they thought they were doing, and why. (I think someone upthread gave the example of Spike in Seeing Red...) I think I read an S/X somewhere where Xander started out being the attacker, and then was horrified by what he was doing, which led to an interesting outcome. I don't know what your scene is or where it's going, but I always am interested in the whys, unless someone is so damaged or evil that they can't perceive the wrong. That's boring...

No need to screen, if that's still an issue.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Just found your reply.

I find the attacker's POV interesting if he does not rape habitually. I am interested in characters who get pushed over one edge or another. Yes, Spike's predicament/state of mind in Seeing Red is very fascinating. A character who completely lacks a moral compass is actually quite boring, IMHO.

I posted the first part of the story that prompted this question/poll, and already people perceive cop!Angel as a complete bastard, but I have a backstory for him in the back of my head, I can see where he's coming from and how his deeds are the result of a long gradual slope downwards... so at least *I'm* interested in him while writing him.

Thank you for replying. :-)