It's time for another peeve post

[estepheia]

If this will make me unpopular, so be it. I have to vent. Please do not feel insulted. It's nothing personal. Whatever floats your boat, etc.

Hunging season is open. Here's a list of words and expressions that I'd rather shoot myself than use (although I may have used them in my younger days...)

* chocolate orbs traveling the angular planes of his face
* cerulean orbs
* velvety orbs

What is it with those orbs? The only orbs I like are real objects. And the chocolate. Chocolate eyes? a) read it so often that it makes me gag, b) has a horrible eating vibe which doesn't go well with eyeballs. Eeew.
'Cerulean' is a nice word, very pretty. So is 'blue.' But we do know that Spike's eyes are blue, so maybe just maybe we don't need to be told every second sentence. Same with the hair-color. Which means that constant use of 'the blonde' is just as out.

* Spike's soft hair - Oh please. After twenty years of bleaching? You wish.
(There is a brilliant story by Zero that deals with the fact that even Spike has his imperfections and is on some level just a guy)

* childe - noooooo please. As a real parent I find the vibe off-putting. Makes me think of small kids, not of sexy vampires. The whole concept of vicious killers turning into cuddly poppa-bears for their adored childe makes me cringe. (However I *do* see different emotional ties when the vamps are souled)

* sable hair - Ask me what Nicholas Brendan's haircolor is and I sure as hell won't say sable. *snort*

* beautiful - a word to be used with care. How about 'handsome', 'good-looking' and 'attractive'?

* pulsing - in conjunction with certain parts of the male anatomy I think 'throbbing' is the nicer image. Just saying.

* baited breath - shouldn't that be 'bated'?

*sucking - a lovely word used to describe what mouths do. Not so great for other orifices. Anataomically impossible too.

I used to love the badfic thread at TwoP. *Sigh* I never got into the habit of visiting its new home. Sometimes I wonder if mikelesq shouldn't resurrect it here. Sometimes I even wonder if I shouldn't quote a few paragraphs of truly horrible writing, but I don't really feel like offending someone.

Oooh, maybe I can do it behind cut tags. Do not read if m/m smut offends you. Do not read if you think pointing out bad writing is mean. But if you do read it please tell me, is it just me or does this really suck? Is this so-called purple prose?



"Slowly, Spike raised his body until only the bulbous head of Angel's cock remained inside him. Watching those velvety brown eyes flare with gold as Spike slid down again joining them together again was nearly Spike's undoing. Angel's eyes were held mesmerized as he watched the place where his body joined Spike's. He stared as Spike rose again; seeing his hardness bathed in his
Childe's blood disappear into that hidden reasure once again."

later:
"Over and over, Angel slid his way home into the only place he felt truly alive. Inside his beautiful childe."
Wickedly Delicious by Amy.

Comments

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

I love my Estepheia a little bit on the snarky side.
Never change. ;)
:licks your chocolate orbs: They are chocolate aren't they? Or are they blueberry? Mint? Licorice?

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

not chocolatey, no. More a moldy grey-green-blue. Are you sure you still want to lick my orbs, o sweet minion?

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I just called Dru's hair sable in my new fic...but it was Spike's thought and he was waxing poetical; does that count? ;-)
I know what you mean; I don't have a problem with 'childe' but I don't think I'd ever use 'orbs'. What makes me giggle? Love juices. What's with that?

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't worry, it's fine in a character's perspective, but for the narrator's voice 'sable' is a bit purple...
Love juices - giggle

Orbs

[auntyk.livejournal.com]

I think the worst reference I ever saw to orbs, was some tv show that had the male character say "I love your alabaster orbs" - he was talking about the female characters breasts.....it was such a poor choice on the writers part.


K

Re: Orbs

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Long ago, in XF fandom, someone complained about the use of 'globular' to describe Scully's breasts. Said it made her think of snot. Blech.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

I used to love the badfic thread at TwoP.

It was a sad day when "Baby" killed the badfic thread! ITA agree with the eyes/eating vibe. I just read a fic this a.m. with that particular phrase. It takes me out of the mood immediately. Ewww.

[7spoons.livejournal.com]

I'm right there with you on orbs. I never need to hear that word again, except in reference to shiny magic orbs, eg. of Thessula (sp?). Also, I have a thing about "the blonde" and "the brunette" as substitutes for Spike and Xander. I know the pronoun thing is a problem in S/X fic, but identifying them by their hair color skeeves me out for some reason. And any mention of chocolate in connection to Xander makes me flinch. It's just been done to death.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

That bugs me because, as men, it should be 'blond' and 'brunet'anyway. Although, checking the dictionary, 'brunette' might be allowed for both m/f.

[db2305.livejournal.com]

Love your peeves - many of them are mine. How about " he couldn't breath" ; the blonde and/or the brunette for men? he didn't fair so well?
Although cerulean orbs is a topper - hard to go down lower than that.
Velvety orbs - tactile imagery combined with eyes. Ew.
I'm not sure about beautiful - okay, I should think, from a clear POV. Bad when it is intended as purely descriptive, from an all-seeing perspective.

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

I believe there is an LJ version of the old TWOP badfic thread -- it's the badbuffyfic community.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Oh, thanks, I didn't know that.
It's nice to know there's a proper place for my peeves.
(I honestly didn't think this post would create such a stir...)

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Yea. That qualifies as hideous.

And can we learn the difference between loose and lose, please? You don't loose someone, unless they are attatched to you by a chain. Which is possible in fic, I suppose, but that's not the point...Ahem.

[poisoninjest.livejournal.com]

::cough::thisfromthegirlwhostillcan'tspell"friend"::cough::

;o)

[(Anonymous)]

I just have to ask: do you ever feel like you're wasting your breath? You keep complaining about the exact same thing over and over and over and over. Not only that, but you complain about the most obvious badfic problems- ones that everyone else has complained about ad nauseam.

I'm just not sure what you're trying to achieve. The badfic writers are going to ignore you, and the good writers already know this stuff. I hardly think that we need a post from you every five minutes to remind us of what we already know to be wrong.

-Birdie

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for saying what I was thinking. I'd much rather hear about all the good fic that is out there (and contrary to popular belief, there is some) than constantly hear the same peeves over and over again. All it does it make the complainer seem self-righteous.

What's next, a two page essay on the use of their, there and they're?

Sigh.

- Dudette

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

I think this does not count as every five minutes, Birdie.
This fic just stunned me because the author was obviously able to format, spell, use grammar and tap into a relatively large vocabulary.

Don't worry, I don't intend to make this a regular badfic LJ, but since I rec fic here, I think I can also occasionally discuss bad stuff.

Besides, I myself learned a lot from other people's posts about their pet peeves. I made very common mistakes when I started writing and I would still make them if I hadn't stumbled over rants like this one. It stung a bit at first, but I'll live.

Peace

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

[shrugs] Didn't read the original post, but I recently got a random "thank you" from a newbie fic writer for an essay I'd done on common fic things that I think are mistakes, why they bug me, and how not to do them. She said she was just starting out and found it helpful. So, I'd say yeah, there's an audience for this sort of thing, though it may not be a big one, of new authors who don't necessarily know it already, but want to.

Plus, people tend to pick up their sense of what's appropriate ettiquette in a given community from what they see everybody else doing. There are a *lot* of not-so-good writers out there, and they talk a lot. SO IMHO there's some point to bitching, aside from lowering one's own blood pressure and maybe amusing the choir, just because it makes clear to newbies that We're Not All Like That.

At that point they can choose up sides like the rest of us. :) But it might encourage more folks to revise/proofread/beta etc. if they knew that it was a) expected and b) appreciated, at least by some of us. And they're not gonna know unless we speak up and keep speaking up. We can't really assume they've already seen the other rant we did on the other mailing list two years ago, 'cause newbies.

Mer

[whimsicalnotion.livejournal.com]

I think it's turning into a frightening trend for you to trash the work of others in a manner that’s more likely to cause the author to want to curl up in a little ball and die, than to actually attempt to improve in any way. The worrying thing is that it’s fast becoming a bandwagon that others are only to willing to jump on. It’s ridicule in most cases not constructive criticism. This hasn’t happened to me personally yet, but on behalf of the people it has, I want to say ‘Hey, no fair!’.

I know you recommend fiction also and kudos to you for that, but surely that doesn't give you the right to trash others so carelessly. You appear to be highly respected throughout the lj community and throughout the Buffy fandom so your words carry weight. Perahps you would consider keeping that in mind.

Buddy

LJ-Censorship?

[ketzel.livejournal.com]

Something tells me that this debate is not new - but isn't your lj the place where you can say pretty much whatever you feel like?

And if Stef is one of the Reich-Ranickis of Fanfic - that should be a reason for her to not speak her mind? Why? And, excuse me, but every author, and that certainly includes people who write stuff like Over and over, Angel slid his way home into the only place he felt truly alive. Inside his beautiful childe should be prepared to be criticized. If you aren't, don't publish.

Kathi

[ahedonia.livejournal.com]

(There is a brilliant story by Zero that deals with the fact that even Spike has his imperfections and is on some level just a guy)

A title, please - perhaps a link? Now you've got me wanting to read it.

As far as my $.02 goes, I'd like there to be a seminar on the difference between "taut" and "taunt". One does not have a "taunt" belly or thigh muscles - unless those body parts are actively teasing someone with cruel jabs about sensitive subjects.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Nuda Veritas by Zero.

SUMMARY: The lies that hurt the most are the ones we tell ourselves, and
the truths that cause us pain are the ones we most need to face.
RATING: PG
CLASSIFICATION: Buffy/Spike

Brilliant!

[mikelesq.livejournal.com]

I believe there is an LJ version of the old TWOP badfic thread -- it's the badbuffyfic community.

There's also a hotmail group here.

I'm just not sure what you're trying to achieve. The badfic writers are going to ignore you, and the good writers already know this stuff.

I disagree. Yes, there are writers who are just flat out bad. At No Cookie, we have fun with them. We're not offering serious criticism. The writers of such stories usually show a basic inability to write anything; improving the creative quality of their writing is out of the question. It is not our hope that they will write better fiction; it is our hope that gifted and inspiring eductators will find these people and teach them the basic rules of grammar and sentence structure, so they may some day find gainful employment.

So I'd agree that there's a lot of bad fic written by hopelessly bad writers, and that no amount of criticism will be of help.

However, there are a lot of other fic writers who exist on the cusp of quality. Their spelling, grammar, characterization, prose, and imagery are all fine (or at least show potential), but a cliche here or a malapropism there makes the story at best tiresome, at worst unreadable.

Unfortunately, such writers often find a lot of positive reinforcement in their feedback. Of course, the sources of such feedback may not be the most discerning of critics ("Oooh. 'Orbs.' That means 'tits.' Faith's tits. Hmmmmmm....").

So I think there's a place in the fanfiction community for serious criticism. Most fic writers want to be good writers. More importantly, they want to become better writers. Criticism helps. Posting a story on the internet is going to bring criticism. If you only write for your own personal pleasure, fine. Keep it on your hard drive. But when you put out there for others to read, you invite feedback, and you have to take the boos with the bows.

[(Anonymous)]

You said:

Posting a story on the internet is going to bring criticism. If you only write for your own personal pleasure, fine. Keep it on your hard drive. But when you put out there for others to read, you invite feedback, and you have to take the boos with the bows.
__________________________
Wow. That's amazing! You completely missed the point of my post. Utterly. I'm kind of impressed.

-Birdie

[rune-vampyr.livejournal.com]

I must admit that a lot of these lists/sites/forums offering 'constructive criticism' make me cringe.

So I think there's a place in the fan fiction community for serious criticism.

I think that it very much depends on what your definition of criticism is. I’ve been directed to quite a few of these ‘bad fic’ lists over the years, and on practically every single occasion what I’ve read on list wasn’t constructive criticism at all. Rather, it was a group of people actively hunting out ’bad fic’ and then gleefully tearing both it and the authors apart.

According to the Merriam/Webster dictionary, criticism is...

the art of evaluating or analyzing works of art or literature

From what I recall, there was very little evaluating or analyzing going on - pieces of fiction were openly and repeatedly mocked and quite often disparaging remarks made about the author.

Whether or not the fiction was bad or not, isn't really the point. Last time I checked, everyone and his or her dog had the right to post fiction on the 'net if they so chose to do so.

However, the fact that the fiction is bad doesn't give other people the right to hurl ridicule and on some occasions abuse. And I must also point out that *some* of the people hurling said abuse, weren't exactly accomplished authors themselves, although they appeared to be laboring under the misconception that they are.

I've always thought that if you treat others in the manner in which *you'd* like to be treated, you can't go wrong. If you feel strongly that you need to criticize, fine - it's your right to do so. But ridicule and cruelty should certainly not be confused with, nor should it be passed off as constructive criticism. I see nothing constructive in insulting or hurting someone so badly that they feel they cannot post.

Most fic writers want to be good writers. More importantly, they want to become better writers.

True. But not everyone is capable of doing so. Does that give other people the right to drive them from their chosen fandom, though? Simply because in their opinion they aren't good enough?

Criticism helps.

I'm well aware that there are those who neither heed nor want criticism and are quite content to go on their merry way. That is their right to do so. However, I know quite a few authors personally who would rather someone would have mailed them with suggestions or genuine criticism, instead of finding that they were the source of ridicule on a site/list/forum/whatever.

BTW, I'm not suggesting for a second that all of the people on these bad fic lists are guilty of the behavior that I've described above, but there is no doubt that there is a certain element that thrives on it.

I don't think that pointing out bad writing is mean - it's the manner in which it's done that's important. I have on occasion mailed authors with criticism privately. My opinion is no more important than theirs is, at the end of the day - and even if I didn’t like their story, other people on the lists appreciated it. And I doubt very much that *any* of us would want to be the butt of other people's joke on a public forum.

I mean to offend no one, btw. This is purely MHO.

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

As someone who has actually learned many helpful hints both from Estepheia and from Pet Peeve lists, I feel the need to add my two cents.

Anyone who has never tried their hand at writing before and starts with fanfiction can be doomed for failure unless they are pointed in the right direction. Fanfiction writers often start out simply as readers. They read a few dozen fics, suddenly get a plot bunny and decide they can write too. And they do – with varying results. My point is that these novice writers often know nothing more about writing than from what they pick up from other fics. This lends to repeating bad habits.

Pet Peeve lists do actually help some people. Most writers do want to become better writers (as Mikelesq mentioned). Reading these discussions helps them to recognize their own mistakes. If I read something in a Pet Peeve list that I’ve done, I sticks with me more than reading it in any Writer’s Guild. They have provided me with indirect feedback on my mistakes that I never would have received directly (outside of my beta).

Pet Peeve lists also opens debates for the difference between bad writing and personal preference. Some people list Spike purring as a pet peeve. Is that bad writing? To me that’s a personal preference. See – it works both ways : )

By the way – I am speaking directly about personal pet peeve lists and not bad-fic threads (that point out specific fics and authors). I can’t comment on those - since I’ve never read one.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_flaming_june_/]

Just dropping in via Mad Poetess-- and wanted to say kudos for this journal post. I can see both sides of the issue, certainly, but the bottom line is that you cannot be denied your right to do and say as you wish in your own LJ. Nor should any fanfic writer be surprised to receive criticism when s/he posts her/his fic in a public forum.

Also-- I'm adding you to my friends list, in hopes of much more entertaining kerfuffle in the future!

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Welcome!
Actually, I don't kerfuffle often. I *try* to be polite most of the time. But this peeve thing bubbles up about twice a year. You should hear me on the Mary Sue issue. ;-)

[nwhepcat.livejournal.com]

And I am just dropping in via jidabug.

For me? No traveling orbs. Please.

I just got started writing fic, and I've sometimes despaired at using character names "too many times" in a scene, but ultimately I feel they are more invisible than not, like "said." It's actually way less noticeable to use said a bunch of times than to have characters growl, bark, smirk and otherwise not say their lines. I reuse names in the same spirit. In a journalism text I read back in the day, it referred to the "elongated yellow fruit" syndrome, and cautioned that sometimes it was better to say "banana" twice. I can't bring myself to do the "the blond vampire" (unless it's a fight scene in which I'm distinguishing two vamps whose names we don't know) or the redhaired wicca.

But that's just me.