It's time for another peeve post

[estepheia]

If this will make me unpopular, so be it. I have to vent. Please do not feel insulted. It's nothing personal. Whatever floats your boat, etc.

Hunging season is open. Here's a list of words and expressions that I'd rather shoot myself than use (although I may have used them in my younger days...)

* chocolate orbs traveling the angular planes of his face
* cerulean orbs
* velvety orbs

What is it with those orbs? The only orbs I like are real objects. And the chocolate. Chocolate eyes? a) read it so often that it makes me gag, b) has a horrible eating vibe which doesn't go well with eyeballs. Eeew.
'Cerulean' is a nice word, very pretty. So is 'blue.' But we do know that Spike's eyes are blue, so maybe just maybe we don't need to be told every second sentence. Same with the hair-color. Which means that constant use of 'the blonde' is just as out.

* Spike's soft hair - Oh please. After twenty years of bleaching? You wish.
(There is a brilliant story by Zero that deals with the fact that even Spike has his imperfections and is on some level just a guy)

* childe - noooooo please. As a real parent I find the vibe off-putting. Makes me think of small kids, not of sexy vampires. The whole concept of vicious killers turning into cuddly poppa-bears for their adored childe makes me cringe. (However I *do* see different emotional ties when the vamps are souled)

* sable hair - Ask me what Nicholas Brendan's haircolor is and I sure as hell won't say sable. *snort*

* beautiful - a word to be used with care. How about 'handsome', 'good-looking' and 'attractive'?

* pulsing - in conjunction with certain parts of the male anatomy I think 'throbbing' is the nicer image. Just saying.

* baited breath - shouldn't that be 'bated'?

*sucking - a lovely word used to describe what mouths do. Not so great for other orifices. Anataomically impossible too.

I used to love the badfic thread at TwoP. *Sigh* I never got into the habit of visiting its new home. Sometimes I wonder if mikelesq shouldn't resurrect it here. Sometimes I even wonder if I shouldn't quote a few paragraphs of truly horrible writing, but I don't really feel like offending someone.

Oooh, maybe I can do it behind cut tags. Do not read if m/m smut offends you. Do not read if you think pointing out bad writing is mean. But if you do read it please tell me, is it just me or does this really suck? Is this so-called purple prose?



"Slowly, Spike raised his body until only the bulbous head of Angel's cock remained inside him. Watching those velvety brown eyes flare with gold as Spike slid down again joining them together again was nearly Spike's undoing. Angel's eyes were held mesmerized as he watched the place where his body joined Spike's. He stared as Spike rose again; seeing his hardness bathed in his
Childe's blood disappear into that hidden reasure once again."

later:
"Over and over, Angel slid his way home into the only place he felt truly alive. Inside his beautiful childe."
Wickedly Delicious by Amy.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I just have to ask: do you ever feel like you're wasting your breath? You keep complaining about the exact same thing over and over and over and over. Not only that, but you complain about the most obvious badfic problems- ones that everyone else has complained about ad nauseam.

I'm just not sure what you're trying to achieve. The badfic writers are going to ignore you, and the good writers already know this stuff. I hardly think that we need a post from you every five minutes to remind us of what we already know to be wrong.

-Birdie

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for saying what I was thinking. I'd much rather hear about all the good fic that is out there (and contrary to popular belief, there is some) than constantly hear the same peeves over and over again. All it does it make the complainer seem self-righteous.

What's next, a two page essay on the use of their, there and they're?

Sigh.

- Dudette

[miggy.livejournal.com]

Fortunately, people don't have to tailor what they write in their personal journal that they pay to maintain to suit your desires of what you'd "much rather read."

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Yes! Hooray for lj! *bg*

[(Anonymous)]

If only it were restricted to LJ I would agree with you, but when I see the same rants from the same people multiple times on mailing lists, on websites, and on forums, it just reeks of extreme redundancy. Commenting on LJ seemed like the easiest way of saying this.

It's like the ultimate form of preaching to the choir - who the hell is going to argue? I don't disagree with what was said, just the fact that it was said at all when it's all been said before.

- Dudette

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

Were you *on* Nummytreats the last time someone (ok, er, Stef) made a peeves post? It wasn't preaching to the choir -- it was a smorgasbord of "Oh my god, do people actually care about that?" and "For the love of all soft and fuzzy creatures, it's Just Fanfic!" and "I'm glad somebody had the nerve to bring this up..."

It may have all been said before, but there's always new people reading it -- and even if the only ones who appreciate it *are* the choir, there's plenty of us who are gratified to know that we're not the only ones out there who are going to gack if we see one more use of the phrase "His Nummy."

[(Anonymous)]

I tend to be a lot more free with my delete key these days when it comes to mailing list fandom rants, so I probably didn't see the last one in NT.

The thing is, in the smorgasbord of example opinions you mention there, there isn't one that doesn't disagree with the fact that there are overused words and phrases in too many fanfics these days, and that there is some disgraceful grammar out there - all the differences I ever see are about whether it really matters or not, and you have to admit that the vast majority of these kind of posts just perpetuate much more of the "I'm glad somebody had the nerve to bring this up..." kind of replies than anything else. That's what I mean by preaching to the choir.

there's plenty of us who are gratified to know that we're not the only ones out there who are going to gack if we see one more use of the phrase "His Nummy."

Don't you tire of all the negativity generated by this though? Self-gratification aside, how many times do people need to be reassured that everyone is thinking the exact same thing that they are?

- Dudette

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

I suppose I'm not an unbiased observer, since I co-host the S/X writers' guild zone, but honestly? I'd rather see someone make a post every so often that points out specific peeves and bad writing techniques in general, and watch folks bitch about whether it's important, whether those particular peeves are legitimate writing critiques or just personal gripes, etc. Because then people are talking about it, instead of going on their merry way and pretending that every story and every writer is wonderful and precious from the get-go.

The negativity isn't unrelenting -- hell, I think in the 3 years I've been on NT there's maybe been two peeve/writing discussions. Certainly the few discussions like this one that I see spread out across various boards/lists/etc are vastly overwhelmed by the mountain of badfic out there.

And obviously by the number of generally agreeing or discussion comments here, there is still an audience for it. So what if it's mostly the choir? You rephrased my comment about feeling gratified as "self-gratification" but what the hell on the internet isn't about self-gratification? If we want to have a discussion about the foibles and quirks and just plain badness we see in fiction, and it's not off-topic for the arena in which we're discussing it, then at least it's amusing or cathartic for us. And if somebody god forbid does realize that there *are* folk who don't think "Spike and Xanpet's Luv Shack With Occasional Random Guest Appearances By Oz" is the be-all end-all of decent writing, huzzah.

It seems to me that it's you who are tiring of [your perception of] the large amount of negativity -- which is fine, but your delete key works in this case too. Or your scroll wheel.

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I should clarify that I'm thinking more of the general peeves and badfic items and sure, why not, rants on the use of they're, their and there, vs. mocking specific stories, in terms of it being a cathartic and non-harmful discussion. Even if it's inded boring for some.

[(Anonymous)]

If I could just jump in here for a moment- you said:

It seems to me that it's you who are tiring of [your perception of] the large amount of negativity -- which is fine, but your delete key works in this case too. Or your scroll wheel.
_____________________

This seems a little hypocritical. Isn't this the exact same argument that the badficcers make, and which is dismissed by the opposition as being non-constructive?

So, maybe this hasn't been constructive to this point, so allow me to propose something more to that end. It seems to me that making a periodic, general rant to hundreds of people in the hopes that an odd newbie will see the light seems wasteful. Why not target the criticism a little better, and offer it specifically to people who are actually seeking it? There's less fall-out from the badficcers who don't want to change, and it will save the rest of us the redundancy.

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

You're assuming that everybody's main intention is to specifically change the behavior of badficcers. (Or potentially good writers who just need that push towards getting a beta, etc.) It may well be so for some, but for some, it's just a rant to blow off steam. For some, it's a discussion topic that they'd welcome opposing arguments to, because they enjoy the back and forth of trying to convince people that they're right. Even if it's the same back-and-forth, from the same types of people.

Hence my pointing out that the back button and the scroll wheel exist for folks who are tired of such discussions, just like they exist for those of us who are tired of badfic. The difference here is that those of us who are tired of badfic are at least talking about something specific -- bad *things* in fic, bad trends, opinions on pet peeves. Something that could possibly be contstructive. We're not -- most of us anyway -- tearing down specific fics and telling those authors that they shouldn't be wasting their time posting. While there's a couple of y'all -- who seem a bit like you popped up here with an agenda -- who are essentially telling Estepheia that she's wasting her time posting, and specifically annoying you. So I don't think my comment about your delete key is hypocritical in this case.

In answer to your actual point -- do I think targetting individual writers with suggestions for improvement would be more constructive than posting occasional public lists of things that annoy me? (Not that I usually do the second; I'm just defending Stef's reasons for doing so.) No, I don't think so. I think they're about equally constructive, for different reasons. Sending feedback to specific authors -- which a lot of us do anyway -- is helpful for those specific authors, but it doesn't let the general public know what annoys some readers. So under your model, there would always be more specific authors to say it to -- and time wasted on small, ridiculous stuff that we could be using to say "I loved your storyline and language, but I thought the Angel characterization was a bit wonky here..."

There's a reason, for instance, that when someone sends an OT post to the fic-only list I co-mod, we always send a mod/warning both to the individual, and to the list. A personal one for the individual, and a note to let the list know that such posts aren't acceptable -- otherwise the one person won't do it again, but everybody else on the list wouldn't know that yeah, we're serious about the fic-only rules. I'm not implying anything ridiculous like "I or Estepheia think we're good taste fic-mods for the world" -- I'm just drawing a parallel in the reasoning.

[(Anonymous)]

You said:

You're assuming that everybody's main intention is to specifically change the behavior of badficcers.
_________________

Nope. I'm addressing the reason Estepheia specifically gave me.

As for the rest? You win. You sucked all the life out of me. I have lost the will to argue. Good job.

- Birdie

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

I think this does not count as every five minutes, Birdie.
This fic just stunned me because the author was obviously able to format, spell, use grammar and tap into a relatively large vocabulary.

Don't worry, I don't intend to make this a regular badfic LJ, but since I rec fic here, I think I can also occasionally discuss bad stuff.

Besides, I myself learned a lot from other people's posts about their pet peeves. I made very common mistakes when I started writing and I would still make them if I hadn't stumbled over rants like this one. It stung a bit at first, but I'll live.

Peace

[(Anonymous)]

You said:
I think this does not count as every five minutes, Birdie.
____

Thanks for your reply. You're right, that was an exaggeration. But I have seen you making these same arguements on lists, in LJ communities, etc. I have seen multiple rants from you regarding the use of "whelp", as well as other prevalent S/X problems. Believe me, I'm not saying you're wrong in what you're ranting about, because I agree completely. I just wonder if you were to weigh the benefits of occasionally turning the odd newbie in the right direction with the costs of being perceived as redundant and preachy, would you continue to rant so frequently?

-Birdie

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

This time I didn't post about this at Nummytreats but vented a bit in my own LJ. And the one time I talked about peeves in the sxandviolence LJ group I first asked the mods if it's ok if I do.

Ah, maybe it's a cultural thing. In Germany we enjoy lively debates. Learning to stand up for one's opinion is something we are taught at school.

[(Anonymous)]

You said:
Ah, maybe it's a cultural thing. In Germany we enjoy lively debates. Learning to stand up for one's opinion is something we are taught at school.
______________

First of all, that's a pretty xenophobic statement. Second of all, I didn't say where I was from (does it really matter?).

It seems to me that if it is "lively debate" that you are interested in, badfic rants are a pretty dry source. From what I've seen, all you get are a bunch of badficcers making statements like, "You're mean!" or "I just write for myself, so bug off!", along with a number of not-so-bad-ficcers saying "Amen". Not exactly a rich source of debate. It seems to me that if you're actually in if for the debate as opposed to feeling superior and getting ego-strokes from your peers, you might find a more debatable topic.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

I believe I was saying something about Germans.

[(Anonymous)]

Um, no. You were making a passive-aggressive comment, insinuating that people of other nations are not as interested in debate as Germans, implying some manner of inferiority. AND, I might add, this isn't the first time you've said something like this. I think your previous post on Michael Moore was just as insulting.

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

Good lord. And you haven't been passive-agressive all the way through this thread? "Don't you ever get tired of the negativity?" "Wouldn't it be more constructive if?" "Wouldn't you rather people didn't see you as preachy and time-wasting?"

Just come out and say "Your posts annoy *me* and at least one of my friends, and I mostly don't like you" (to which the "thank you, drive through" response could be given immediately and save all of us some time) instead of pretending you're crusading for the peace and harmony and mental health of fandom-at-large.

[(Anonymous)]

I thought that I did come out and say that her posts annoy me. But it's not specifically her, all posts like that are starting to annoy me. I'm genuinely interested in why they prevail, and if people think they're effective, but that's just curiosity. I'm not crusading for peace and harmony- just as much as she has the right to say "I hate when X happens in fandom," I have the right to say "I hate it when Y happens in fandom." My only motivation for suggesting a solution is because your post on the other thread made me realize that my bitching is probably as ineffective as hers. Forgive me for trying to be constructive.

-Birdie

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

You absolutely have the right to say "I hate it when Y happens in fandom." When Y="someone discussing something boring to me in public when I think they should send it privately to every individual who might benefit from it, or just shut the heck up" and the way you choose to say it is to do so publically in a discussion forum, instead of sending it privately to the person who's annoying you, you rather undercut your own case.

And your constructive solution was (albeit more politely worded) "Send specific private feedback and stop annoying me with your more general public postings." Believe it or not, that's neither an original idea (People *do* send private feedback and have been doing so for decades, and it doesn't serve the same purpose as a public discussion) or necessarily constructive for anyone but you. It did give you the chance to refer to the person who's annoying you as passive aggressive, preachy, self-congratulatory, and a number of other thinly-disguised insults, under the guise of "constructiveness" -- which seems pretty passive-agressive to me. Am I wrong?

[(Anonymous)]

*shrug* I gave it my best shot. I never said it was original, and well, as long as we're talking about being passive-aggressive...

I never said my original post was constructive, and I stand by my assessment of these kind of posts.

As for the fact that you think I'm passive-aggressive, rats. I thought I was being outright agressive, but attempting to be polite. But if that's the way you want to label it, go for it. My feelings aren't hurt.

Anyway, you said:

You absolutely have the right to say "I hate it when Y happens in fandom." When Y="someone discussing something boring to me in public when I think they should send it privately to every individual who might benefit from it, or just shut the heck up" and the way you choose to say it is to do so publically in a discussion forum, instead of sending it privately to the person who's annoying you, you rather undercut your own case.
________________________

How does that work? My point was to not have the same people rehash the same old things publicly ad infinitum, and as far as I know, this is the first time I've posted anything about this publicly. If it turns out to be the case that the point I'm making pops up every other week by the same people elsewhere, well, I'll admit your point.

Dear Mr./Mrs Anonymous

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

I just reread my post on Michael Moore, just to make sure if I said anything I shouldn't have. I don't think I did.
Different countries, different people. We often act according to our cultural conditioning. I can only talk about my own, which is anti-authority, anti-'majority-at-all-cost', anti-political correct and pro-criticism, pro-debate, pro-pluralism.
That's how my generation was brought up. And my LJ is bound to reflect that - even though the internet is blurring such cultural conditioning.

PS: Be kind and sign your posts by name.

Re: Dear Mr./Mrs Anonymous

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I'll chalk it up to misunderstanding your tone. That's all I have the energy for at this point.

Regarding signing my post, I incorrectly assumed that you understood by the rhythm of our conversation. All of the posts to this thread were from me. Mea culpa.

- Birdie

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

[shrugs] Didn't read the original post, but I recently got a random "thank you" from a newbie fic writer for an essay I'd done on common fic things that I think are mistakes, why they bug me, and how not to do them. She said she was just starting out and found it helpful. So, I'd say yeah, there's an audience for this sort of thing, though it may not be a big one, of new authors who don't necessarily know it already, but want to.

Plus, people tend to pick up their sense of what's appropriate ettiquette in a given community from what they see everybody else doing. There are a *lot* of not-so-good writers out there, and they talk a lot. SO IMHO there's some point to bitching, aside from lowering one's own blood pressure and maybe amusing the choir, just because it makes clear to newbies that We're Not All Like That.

At that point they can choose up sides like the rest of us. :) But it might encourage more folks to revise/proofread/beta etc. if they knew that it was a) expected and b) appreciated, at least by some of us. And they're not gonna know unless we speak up and keep speaking up. We can't really assume they've already seen the other rant we did on the other mailing list two years ago, 'cause newbies.

Mer